Universal Access To All Knowledge
Home Donate | Store | Blog | FAQ | Jobs | Volunteer Positions | Contact | Bios | Forums | Projects | Terms, Privacy, & Copyright
Search: Advanced Search
Anonymous User (login or join us)
Upload

Reply to this post | See parent post | Go Back
View Post [edit]

Poster: falconcry77 Date: May 24, 2009 2:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

i noticed that too, and it is deffinetly weird. The other sbd sources don't have a break, and there's no need for one at all since it's not at a disc change.

it's also weird because in the performance they go into BCE very quickly from NPC, and there's a cool little drum riff connecting the two that is lost on RT 2.2. Anyone have an answer???

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: May 24, 2009 3:35pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

No answer, but I noticed it too. However, compared to what they did to the Morning Dew on Europe '72, it's a small quibble...

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: stuffyhead Date: May 24, 2009 7:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Hmmm, judging by other responses here I'm not the only one so anal! Ha! ha! Considering my old cassette of that show is now permanently engraved in my, and so may others, DNA I would hope it would have "everything." Now, if only "Sunshine Daydream" would get such treatment from GD.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Arck Date: May 25, 2009 12:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Hi

re: the

I'm pretty sure the gap between NPC and Born Cross-Eyed is the multi-tracks. I thought it was weird because I know that my old copy of the show has no gap. I listened closely to my copy and the music on the segue is patched in (from an FM source or something). So I think they decided not to patch it in from that source.

It's a fairly bizarre decision IMO because from the end of Spanish Jam until to the end of show (except for a small part of the Alligator jam which was on Anthem) the source is clearly a significantly inferior source. In fact, the source after the small multi-track patch in the Alligator Jam runs slowly, like the circulating copies always did. The jam kicks back in and it's noticably lower in pitch. It's a pity because the lower pitch seems to be constant - surely it's something they could easily have fixed with pitch correction?

This post was modified by Arck on 2009-05-25 07:32:06

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: SkyDawg Date: May 25, 2009 3:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Wow! Intelligent post and well said. Pitch Correction seems to be a problem on some of these "Official" releases. On the last "Download Series", (some show from'79), the whole show that people paid good money for was off pitch. The good people in the Dead Head community who care about such things, or notice them at least, had to put up a pitch corrected torrent of that Download Series release. They basically did all the hard work, and didn't make a penny for their efforts. That's not what it was all about. They did it for the love of the music and preserving it's integrity. Keeping the music alive for all of us to enjoy.

That says something about the current business model of the people who are making a profit now from the Grateful Dead audio archive. Things were better when the Dead ran the whole thing. At least people who loved the music were involved in putting it out commercially.
This is an uncomfortable question, because I love most of his work, but where was Jeffrey Norman during this? He's a very good audio engineer and did amazing work on the 1974 Winterland shows (on The Grateful Dead Movie and soundtrack), but yet whole shows, like the Download Series or parts of shows like 2/14/68 are off pitch. This shouldn't be happening.
People getting their orders screwed up with defective discs, no bonus disc, ect.. this type of thing should not be happening! This of course is NOT Jeffrey Norman's fault, but the organization's. A real shame.

I always love to support the band and buy the shows they release. That has been my tradition since 1970 when I bought my first Grateful Dead album and saw my first show. They have been slacking big time in quality control for a few years now.
Back when Betty Cantor-Jackson was involved she used to go out to the record pressing plants and inspect the vinyl to make sure it was top grade! The band really cared. They would play three, four hour shows and send someone out to make sure their records sounded good. Gotta love that!

I love the Road Trips with 2/14/68 for the bonus material and sound quality, but I'm hanging on to my Charlie Miller transfer for the clarity, and accuracy of transfer. The quality is top notch, and it needs no pitch correcting.
I'll bet Betty would have liked it that way.

This post was modified by SkyDawg on 2009-05-25 10:52:31

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: stuffyhead Date: May 25, 2009 6:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Wow. I'm so happy to see such intelligent heads (no pun intended) posting here! I'm shocked to hear that there are pitch issues on this new Road Trips. I noticed the same thing during a jam in Alligator in the Fillmore West box set when the switched sources. I highly doubt that these sort of things couldn't have been fixed before the release date. Sound engineers can work miracles. Do the people handling releases fro the archives think deadheads are so stoned and out of it that we won't know the difference? Some of us do notice these blemishes immediately.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Arck Date: May 25, 2009 7:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

My post sounded more negative than I intended. I think it's odd that the Caution/Feedback, Midnight Hour runs slow (it's only a little slow, around half a step I think) when the speed appears to be uniform (i.e. simply raising the pitch across the whole segment would seem to give an approximately correct pitch the whole way).

I think the release itself is great and I love the show. It probably bothers me more than it should because the Alligator> Caution> Feedback is by far my favourite part of this show.

Jeffery Norman commented on the Road Trips download speed issue. To paraphrase he said that they go for integrity to the source recording rather than the concert pitch. He suggested that guitars went in and out of tune so often (sometimes noticably within one song) that it's hard to be sure that every song was played at concert pitch and therefore hard to "correct" pitch because he can't always be sure what the correct pitch was.

As for the new release there's definitely a lot fluctuating tuning and singing going on (as there is for a lot of early 1968 especially) but I just felt that the last part could have been sped out fractionally and we would have had a completely complete release (instead of the almost completely complete release we have).

I applaud the release generally though. The bonus stuff is amazing and the first 3/4 of the 14 Feb show sound brilliant. Once the patch kicks in the sound is pretty funky but at least for most of Alligator, it's practically in tune the whole way. It's a pity the Alligator> Caution was no doubt butchered for the Anthem album.

Ah well - this is something recorded over 41 years ago. It sounds pretty good considering!

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: BillyBuck Date: May 25, 2009 6:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

>>Jeffery Norman commented on the Road Trips download speed issue. To paraphrase he said that they go for integrity to the source recording rather than the concert pitch. He suggested that guitars went in and out of tune so often (sometimes noticably within one song) that it's hard to be sure that every song was played at concert pitch and therefore hard to "correct" pitch because he can't always be sure what the correct pitch was.<<

As someone who does a lot of amateur tape restoration, I'm really surprised to hear him cop out like that! To accurately recreate a music event, reasonably correct pitch is far more important than frequency response, noise, even mild distortion. I don't think it's worth getting anal over less than a semitone's difference, but anything greater than that and you're hearing a far different performance than the original.

Staying in tune was definitely tougher back then, but they would have had to tune to Pig's organ (or later, Keith's piano) so it's not like there isn't a reference. Also, basses tend to hold their tuning much better than guitars, so why not use Phil?

Also, it seems like any necessary speed adjustment would apply for an entire reel of tape, rather than song-by-song. (Assuming there wasn't a major problem with the recording deck).

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Arck Date: May 25, 2009 7:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Yeah, I'm definitely paraphrasing. I'll try to find it from dead.net.

[some time later]

Argh, my memory betrayed me. Jeffrey Norman made a short post about the downloads (and it was specific to the recording medium so is not very relevant here). It's available at http://www.dead.net/features/release-info/new-full-show-downloads?page=4 and is the fourth last comment.

The stuff about recording medium integrity vs correct pitch was talked about in discussions following Jeffery's post by other users. Apologies to Jeffrey for misquoting him.

I'm nitpicking and I agree with the sentiment that if something ain't broke, don't fix it. I guess in this my argument isn't that something is broke but more that something is 90% complete and works fine but why not just fix the final 10% if it isn't too hard.

I suppose that begs the question: was it too hard to fix this speed issue? Maybe there are many other reasons for this.

I've been emailing David L regarding the early 1968 releases (and have received some responses). He's a bit reluctant to make definitive statements about periods like this when so much is unknown (I'm sure it's come back to bite him before) but I'll try to crack the 14/02 multi-track/patch nut with him soon!

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Skobud Date: May 27, 2009 10:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Pitch problems are frequent especially with reel to reel. Tape warble can cause serious pitch issues as far as channel vs. channel. In other words, your left channel could be proper and your right could be off or even nonexistent. Using both channels or remixing them into one from the original source on this one was probably a challenge to say the least. Another cause is the head of the machine being out of calibration. Oscillation will cause similar problems as well. Im not even sure of the rig they were using at the time....

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: William Tell Date: May 27, 2009 2:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Whoa! Holy "Group Credenza Award" Batman! You all really do know what you're talking about...

Impressive. Rare posters with much to say...hmmm.

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: May 27, 2009 4:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

As opposed to frequent posters with little to say? I resemble that remark, sir! ;-)

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: William Tell Date: May 27, 2009 4:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Yep. It's an ecological truism: most species are rare, while few species are common. Think "Poisson" distribution (my favorite kind). And, a corollary: common species are often generalists, while rare species are more typically specialists. Now, getting your students to grasp this is not as easy as it might seem on the face of these simplistic inferences...

Draw your own conclusions. When I was in Uni, we never considered ourselves deserving of an education, why...we walked uphill, both ways, thru the snow, to get to school each day...did I mention we were barefoot? Nowadays kids take a consumerist approach in which they take it as a given, presumably as a result of their tuition, that they are entitled to a high grade, as if purchased, rather than it being the case they have only purchased the opportunity for learning...

I would suggest that you can best consider yourself a specialist, rare and refined, comfortable in your niche, here in the Ecological Community we call Forum Land.

Did you ever imagine your brief humorous comment would elicit such a rant from a disgruntled Tell?

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Styrofoam Cueball Date: May 27, 2009 5:21pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

That's OK; I like 'adult portions' and that one will take some time to digest, yessirree. :) Not the response I expected, which is a positive right there. That being said, if you are doing an anthropological study of the fauna on this blog, you shouldnae blow your cover...

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: Skobud Date: May 28, 2009 4:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

:

This post was modified by Skobud on 2009-05-28 11:53:18

Reply to this post
Reply [edit]

Poster: William Tell Date: May 28, 2009 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: most recent Road trips 2/14/68

Hmmm, took me a while to find this...can't believe I was so cranky about students and such yesterday...oh well, a new day, new hope (star wars or otherwise).